Performance Scooter Tuning

Who wants to program their own ignition curve without having to buy an entire electrical system with a flywheel?

It would retain the entire stock ignition system but would allow the end-user to program their own curve. It could also come with some "off the shelf" curves stored in it. It could be configures for temperature inputs like ambient and engine temps. Load inputs could also be used, such as a throttle position sensor or switch.

The AddOnV is priced for us US customers at about $95 as well as the Augusto 6k,7k and 8k. The AddOnV has a very primitive curve adjustment and the Augusto comes with some undefined "black box" curves that leaves the customer pretty much in the dark as to what curve they're getting.

This will be made in the USA and domestic customers, for once, won't be at the mercy of insane shipping charges and unfavorable exchange rates.

So what do you think something like this is worth?

How many do you think I could move, just here in the US?

How many bells and whistles do the poeple want? Barebones with just one programmable curve, or space for many curves? Temp inputs? Load inputs?

Thanks in Advance

I want one.
A separate module like the AssOnMe that can be programmed via USB - notebook and create a curve with at least 4 vertices. I'd pay up to USD 200.
Same as above with throttle sensor and regulation (usB) 350USB

Thanks for the input Vespisti1! 4 vertices eh? Resolution will be way higher than that for sure. I had 100 RPM increments in mind.

The USB thing is a given, although I wish RS232 ports were more common.

Me.

And maybe 5 or so others in Singapore to start with... People who's arms I can twist.

I know you've been thinking about this for a while... Really hoping it gets going

I think there is an Italian guy on the German Scooter forum doing basically the same thing. He has a working prototype on his bike and is "BETA" testing it so to speak.

I'll see if i can find a link.

C.

Let me expand on my wish list
It's also important (but not crucial) to have a throttle possition sensor.
When touring with expansion chambers at the peak of the pipe boost you pull back the trottle. There is when overheating is more dangerous
High speeds and little throttle opening indicates peak torque, too much exhaust backflow

For instance:
Look at this torque curve
http://picasaweb.google.com/Vespisti1/V ... 3813625234
See the bell between 6000 rpm & 7400 ?
I'd like to be able to adjust advance mapped for that range when throttle possition is less than 1/2 opened. Lets say -2 degs when at 1/2 throttle to minus 5 degs at 1/8. This trick will enable me to tour with the JL + the SI carb, and to rise the ignition advance a couple of degrees thru the curve for better pick up response.
Then, when the ratio of fresh air/fuel mix bouncing in the pipe over the total fresh mix from the carb increases -i.e. when cruising on the pipe at - the throttle sensor could retard a bit more & cooling of things
So far I dropped the JL and I'm touring with the sito +

A sure-enough potentiometer type TP sensor would be hard to rig on a bike with a flatslide carb. A switch would be easier.

By the hosting (.fr) I'd say he's french:




Well, seems the project took him almost 5 years to get to this stage...


seems he shares the same thoughts as vespist1:

(I would put this directly on the handlebars/throtle)

HAH! I've been reading that thread. There are a couple of guys doing this on the GSF. One uses an Atmega controller and the other (pictured above) uses a PIC controller. All of this is shockingly similar to what we're working on. In fact, I had a PIC in mind, and my partner had an Atmega in mind!

If your going that route for the TPS, work up a system similar to the oil pump control. That way you wont have issues with slippage and cable slack.
I bet you could use a simple electric motor controller as a platform.

BTW. Count me in on one....

I guess you could split the throttle cable using something like my RD350 does.

Once the cable is split, the end that doesn't go to the carb could go to a bellcrank that twists a TP sensor. Something to think about for later on.

But 1st you have to decide who your clients are...
The throttle cable gadget will divide waters and reduce your market or increase your cost. That system either works for SI or for big carbs and then you 'd need to provide spares for the cables.
To be succesful you need to keep it simple, so you are in the market for the guy fitting a M166 kit and a pipe and also for the guy with a 25-30 HP bike.
The system also needs to be reversible and easy to disconect if it fails. One of the reasons I don't like vespatronics or parmakits are that they are not as tested and reliable as the piaggio-ducattis, and their parts are not easily available here. When the AddOnVs failed me, I just unplug them and got home.
Market wise, the format is key:
It can have the form of a complete black box that repaces the Ducatti one or an additional box to be mounted in the frame away from vibrations and heat. The latter option can be a deterrant for those that are not so mechanically inclined.
I'd make the throttle sensor optional, providing the slot in the box and the possibility to plug a switch, a manual modulator, or a throttle sensor.
Other option can be a simplified system w/out the need for a usb or computer that can perfectly do the job 'd be more marketable.
A box with a face such as an audio equalizator with 5 to 10 levels that controlls 0 to 10 degs of retard creating a curve with 5 to 10 vertices at different RPM intervals. Simple to use and to install w/out specialized knowledge or tools. You leave the equalizer keys up for 0 retard (= to stator advance), you turn all keys down to the middle of the range and you are 5 degs more retarded than the stator. Then you can create your own curve as needed by looking at the cht or follow your advice on were to put each key for different set ups.

Simpler, =>easier to install and set => cheaper to fabricate => lower sale price => more volume and profit.

Believe me, these issues will be gone over with a fine-toothed comb.

The final build may be barebones, or it may have a sophisticated enough controller to run a fuel injected single. Should it have a fancy chip, it's very tempting to allow the end user to define their own inputs/outputs.

Also, I am opposed to making my own coil. Ducati stuff works fine. I also intend to support LML ignitions and we may even work on a Bajaj CDI.

Things I am thinking about -
How would you change between setups ? Some times I ride with the Sidecar off and I will probably want to change curves.

For me it's important to have superb installation instructions. I don't have access to a dino so I have to be able to set it up without one.

all the newer jap two stroke street bikes use some type of throttle position sensor, like this rs250 aprilia
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/APRILIA-RS250-THROTTLE-CABLES-WITH-CONTROL-BOX_W0QQitemZ150375603208QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Motorcycle_Parts?hash=item2303159c08

the suzuki rgv250 also uses same throttle position sensor - since the aprilia uses a suzuki motor. i wonder what the aprilia 50 ditech uses???

A flipswitch could be added to flip between programs, but I'm not sure if it's a good idea. This thing will be in a nasty environment. A switch or led is another way for goup to get in. Would it be terribly inconvenient if you had to use a usb cable to switch between programs? Serious question.

The best way to choose the best timing curve is to see the dyno curve of your bike. The GSF dyno software is free. We may start selling voltage reducers (for use with the GSF Dyno) at near cost to help users tune their bikes. Even the Iphone dyno would be some help. I also want to have the timing map files easy to share with others so you will have plenty to choose from without having to get them from us or make them yourself. We may make a site with a support forum.

That's great info, thanks. I don't forsee parts suppliers selling us hardware like TP sensors, etc... so rigging stuff like this up may be up to the end user source, fit and program. Hell, I'd love to just call up Orbital and get some air injectors, or get a hold of Mikuni and get some throttle bodies and put together a comprehensive FI kit.

A buddy has a Scarabeo in his shop for servicing, I'll ask about the TP sensor. I'd love to get a hold of one of those Ditechs and dissect it.

I keep seeing Vortex guys in the dirt bike world quite a bit; you can see their handlebar set up - it switches between installed maps. Notice the white dial wheel at the bottom of the ECU box, it has dial wheels to pre-set maps you want the switch to select through.

http://esvc000160.wic015tu.server-web.com/

The idea for switching maps is to have one for hard dirt and one for mud. I'm not sure if scooters really need this function, might just be an unnecessary design hassle and increase cost. Although, if someone was really hard up for a handle bar switch, maybe converting the on/off kill switch might do the trick (at least gives option between two maps)?